PDA

View Full Version : Future of Pentaho



dibe0015
12-18-2008, 03:57 AM
Hi,

I heard rumors that Pentaho is firing over 20% if their developers. Is that true? Is there any official statement maybe?

Benjamin

bugg_tb
12-18-2008, 04:23 AM
Although I have absolutely no idea, I was always told, never believe what you hear on the grape vine

MattCasters
12-18-2008, 08:03 AM
3 developers as far as I know of were laid off. Sorry if there were 4, I didn't know all of them very well.

As far as the future is concerned, it's so bright we gotta wear shades (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvIAyxpjEuc).

Matt

pmalves
12-18-2008, 08:09 AM
well, if both statements are true, pentaho has currently 12 developers :D

bugg_tb
12-18-2008, 08:09 AM
Shades? Not a pretty sight. Shame to hear about the devs though.

MattCasters
12-18-2008, 08:34 AM
pmalvas, that number does great injustice to the large amount of contributors, you included.

PDI alone has over 25 committers. Sure, not all on the Pentaho payroll, but it does show you the difference between layoffs in a proprietary company and a commercial open source company.

Take care,
Matt

pmalves
12-18-2008, 08:44 AM
Sorry matt, forgot the <irony> tag surrounding my statement :rolleyes:

dibe0015
12-18-2008, 09:01 AM
Thanks for your answers. I know OS software usually has a lot of committers but I see other OS BI companies growing really fast while Pentaho is slowing down. But maybe everyone is so happy with Version 2* that you don't have to work as fast on more and better features.

Benjamin

*Still waiting for Community edition V2 GA on Sourceforge

MattCasters
12-18-2008, 09:27 AM
Well Benjamin flamebait,

Please pray do enlighten us, what OS BI companies are growing "so fast"?
Additionally, feel free to let us know which among that group recently needed to get extra funding.

Matt

bugg_tb
12-18-2008, 09:32 AM
Maybe our friend here hasn't noticed the economic down turn?

Judging by his website I would guess Palo as his thesis is Pentaho vs Palo. Don't see it myself though..

MattCasters
12-18-2008, 09:39 AM
LOL, Palo would be a surprising answer indeed, never even counted them among our competitors :-)
More like a different solution to a different problem.

Taqua
12-18-2008, 09:42 AM
A slowdown every now and then is not a bad thing. After years of adding feature over feature, every software comes to a point where the old sins of the early days from home to give you nightmares. So from time to time you have to clean the house, throw out old code and clean up the mess. If you dont, at some point your software becomes unmaintainable and creating new features takes more and more time.

The development of Platform 2.0 is one example of such a clean-out effort. Most of the development time was spent under the covers of the system, not to crank out new features but to make sure that we get rid of the old and ugly stuff that has accumulated over the last releases. At the end, the new platform is now a modular construct with a cleaner set of APIs. As a pure end-user, this low-level may not buy you much today in terms of new shiny features, but it makes sure that the product is more robust and that future enhancements wont take ages to implement. If at some future point, you want to exercise your rights and start to customize the platform, you will appreciate the time and money spent today, as it allows you to make your changes a lot faster and with a lot less headaches.

And to be honest, hunting feature after feature just to complete a check-list or just to brag about "yeah, we have x-times more features than vendor XY" is not a sane road to start with. That is what killed the development speed and quality of the "old" commercial software in the first place. I rather have a lean product with less bugs than a bloated product with more bugs than users.

dibe0015
12-18-2008, 10:19 AM
Hi,

yeah you are right, I meant Jedox, they doubled there sized in the last year. I know they are not competitors of Pentaho, at least not yet. I'm not sure how much details you have about their new Open Source Worksheet Server that will be released next year, it will be a big step toward webbased reporting with Palo. I'm also pretty sure Gartner mentioned them for a reason in their papers about Open Source BI this summer. They are not as big as Pentaho yet and don't offer as many solutions for all the different needs of BI but I don't think you should complety ignore them.

I'm not saying shame on Pentaho for firing developers. Almost every IT company does that lately, the company I'm working for did the same with 200 employees. I was just surprised to hear about it, because different experts said the economic turn down could be a good chance for Open Source BI since companies are trying even hard to save some money.

I tried Pentaho V2 and V1.7 and I could even tell a big difference as a normal user and trying out some parts of the administration. Things got easier and cleaned up. Thats why I guessed Pentaho needed the developers to build Version 2 and can now "slow down" with developing.

Benjamin

MattCasters
12-18-2008, 11:36 AM
different experts said the economic turn down could be a good chance for Open Source BI since companies are trying even hard to save some money


I know what you're saying Benjamin, but "could" and "should" don't really make that claim a fact. It's really better to be safe than sorry.
I'm glad to hear that Jedox is doing fine, I enjoyed working with them on the Palo plugin for PDI. Just for reference, Pentaho has been doubling in size ever since they got started as well.

Take care,
Matt

codek
12-19-2008, 08:10 AM
The growing os bi company is presumably jasper - Now they've been acquired by redhat.

It has to be said that being bought by redhat is an excellent coup for jasper, and does confirm their solidarity and future in the market.
One could assume redhat looked at pentaho, and either it wasnt available for acquisition, or decided they preferred the Jasper offering.

This is surprising news though.

Taqua
12-19-2008, 08:58 AM
Jasper is not acquired by Redhat, nor has Redhat a 12.5 Million $ investment in JasperSoft. The articles (not counting the headlines) mostly say that Redhat was *among* the investors (http://www.jaspersoft.com/nw_press_jaspersoft_twelve_five_million.html), not the sole one. With the current round of financing, Jasper has received 47.8 Million $ of investments (http://opensource.sys-con.com/node/774567), so under the academic assumption that share prices are totally static, you would need at least 47 million $ to buy the company.

This false messaging came from the fact, that journalists nowadays cant read anymore (yet still they manage to produce texts, probably via the million monkey method that made Shakespeare so successful) or that they have no time to check facts. Thats one reason why I dont listen to dead-wood news anymore.

Conclusion:
* Don't trust the media
* OpenSource BI is a lot bigger than just 12.5 million bucks

codek
12-19-2008, 10:33 AM
That doesnt change the fact that redhat have invested in jaspersoft and not pentaho. Neither does it change the fact, that such an investment can only be good thing for jasper, and I suppose indirectly for os bi.

MattCasters
12-19-2008, 02:13 PM
It's the wrong question to ask: why would Jaspersoft be taking in any money when there is a credit crisis out there and when they have to pay through the nose in shares?
I personally would not like RedHat or any company to put money into Pentaho at this point since that would lower the % of shares I have in Pentaho.

They must have had a need for it somehow. I'm not in the business of speculating, but I don't think it is really the sign of a healthy company, no matter how they spin it.
Also consider 4 different CEOs in 4 years time and you might look at them slightly different.

Anyway, I don't really care what they do or don't do. It's ultimately not a real competitor of ours, especially not in the data integration arena I might add :-)

Matt

dibe0015
12-22-2008, 06:00 AM
Hi Matt,

one of the reasons RedHat invested money into JasperSoft might be the fact that they are using Jasper in some of there distributions. You might be right, maybe they need the money really bad. But maybe they also want to force their development to have a better product to sell after the crisis. Some people believe in anti-cyclical investements.

Who do you think are your main competitors, for the BI Suite, not just for PDI? I never really used Jasper but from what I have seen I got the impression they try to cover pretty much the same functions as Pentaho does. Or did you mean Jasper isn't a competitor because it's also commercial open source?

Benjamin

PS: I think this thread is a very interesting one.

MattCasters
12-22-2008, 09:14 AM
IMHO, Jaspersoft and Pentaho are not competitors In the same way that Pentaho and Talend are not really competitors: Pentaho goes after the full BI stack. The extra factors being totally different architectures in the Talend case and the fact that Jaspersoft really only does reporting and a bit of dashboarding themselves. ETL and OLAP are maintained by Talend and Pentaho respectively.

In the end, what it comes down to is that we should be aiming higher in the BI stack. That's not going to happen with embedded reporting. It's going to happen with full BI stacks, complete service driven metadata layers, rich UI tools, integrated metadata querying, ETL backtracking, impact analyses, etc. That grand unified vision is what keeps us up at night and that's what we're working on every day.

To a technology aware audience it's hard to explain sometimes that 99.99% of our users out there do NOT know SQL, don't care about JDBC drivers, Java classes and technology in general. Providing these people with nice clean BI solutions is what will make us *really* succesful in the coming months and years to come. That's also the sort of thing that puts you head-to-head with IBM/SAP/Oracle. That's my prediction for 2009, and my deepest whish at the same time :-)

Matt

dogfuel
01-23-2009, 05:05 PM
There are several mentions of competitors of Pentaho in this thread ... as a user of commercially supported and os Jasper and Pentaho over the last few years, I have a slightly different vantage ...

Jasper is a competitor of Pentaho's reporting and rolap offering (and slightly more refined) but it is only a competitor as monolithic, centralized BI tool – in this space neither is directly comparable to BO, OBIEE and Cognos ... yet.

R and SAS compete for with Pentaho for Data Mining - but not directly as they are pure statistical tools

Having implemented strategic and tactical projects will all three in the last few years, I feel SSIS and Informatica are the only tools that come close to Kettle for traditional ETL - throw Datastage in the mix if you are hardcore IBM (in my opinion, Kettle beats them all handily).

In another role, Kettle is uniquely and particularly valuable for point integration and edge integration projects where ETL is decentralized ... look for more of this as folks finally admit EAI tools are not the swiss army knives of integration that they were sold as.


In most cases, I'll pick the Pentaho suite when someone needs to pay for commercial support (or indemnification) and if not, Jasper for reports, Mondrian for xLAP, R for stats and mining and Kettle for the integration!