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Thread: Internationalization of Job entries / Layout configuration of dialogs

  1. #1
    sven.thiergen Guest

    Default Internationalization of Job entries / Layout configuration of dialogs

    All job entries were made ready for internationalization (property
    files of German and English exist right now). Some of the files that
    needed quite a lot modifications have a changed code layout, so
    comparing on checkout is a bit troublesome. Sorry about that ...
    Besides that I've checked in some mechanisms for better layout control
    of the dialogs:

    There is a new method "getJobsDialogStyle()" which reads the (new)
    ".spoonrc" entry "JobsDialogStyle" and sets the style for all Job
    dialogs accordingly. It simply expects strings that match the SWT
    constants

    SWT.APPLICATION_MODAL
    SWT.RESIZE
    SWT.MAX
    SWT.MIN

    (prefix "SWT." is not necessary). So it is possible to specify
    JobsDialogStyle=RESIZE,MAX,MIN

    - or any other combination and the style will be build accordingly.
    E.g. I would like the dialogs to be opened modally -> the user shall
    finish the dialog before opening any other. Others may think
    differently and may set the style as they wish. Any thoughts on this?

    Second, I thought it to be a good thing to prevent the dialogs from
    being resizable and instead setting a well-fitting size at creation.
    This usually makes layouting easier. The size of each job entry dialog
    can now be configured in ".spoonrc" as well and accessed via
    Props.setDialogSize(shell, dialogName)

    E.g. 'props.setDialogSize(shell, "JobTransDialogSize")' in
    'JobEntryTransDialog.java', line 709 - it reads the configuration
    entry JobTransDialogSize=650,650 (if it exists). If no size is
    configured the size will not be set and behaviour is as before.

    Any thoughts on this - if you feel that this feature is not too useful
    it can quite easily be removed from source. If it is a useful one, we
    could extend it to all other dialogs. Following some good size
    settings for all Job entry dialogs (just copy it into ".spoonrc"):

    JobEvalDialogSize=650,400
    JobFTPDialogSize=650,380
    JobFileExistsDialogSize=400,200
    JobHTTPDialogSize=700,470
    JobJobDialogSize=650,500
    JobMailDialogSize=650,650
    JobSFTPDialogSize=500,320
    JobSQLDialogSize=600,400
    JobShellDialogSize=650,500
    JobSpecialDialogSize=500,250
    JobTableExistsDialogSize=400,200
    JobTransDialogSize=650,650

    Testing on Linux / Apple would be good since I only use windows.


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  2. #2
    Sven Boden Guest

    Default Re: Internationalization of Job entries / Layout configuration of dialogs

    On Jan 30, 4:14 pm, "sven.thiergen" <s.thier... (AT) itcampus (DOT) de> wrote:
    > All job entries were made ready for internationalization (property
    > files of German and English exist right now). Some of the files that
    > needed quite a lot modifications have a changed code layout, so
    > comparing on checkout is a bit troublesome. Sorry about that ...


    The code layout change is pretty annoying yes ;-)


    > There is a new method "getJobsDialogStyle()" which reads the (new)
    > ".spoonrc" entry "JobsDialogStyle" and sets the style for all Job
    > dialogs accordingly. It simply expects strings that match the SWT
    > constants
    >
    > SWT.APPLICATION_MODAL
    > SWT.RESIZE
    > SWT.MAX
    > SWT.MIN
    >
    > (prefix "SWT." is not necessary). So it is possible to specify
    > JobsDialogStyle=RESIZE,MAX,MIN
    >
    > - or any other combination and the style will be build accordingly.
    > E.g. I would like the dialogs to be opened modally -> the user shall
    > finish the dialog before opening any other. Others may think
    > differently and may set the style as they wish. Any thoughts on this?


    Maybe there's a good reason code wise to make a dialog modal and if
    you change it it will break something?

    >
    > Second, I thought it to be a good thing to prevent the dialogs from
    > being resizable and instead setting a well-fitting size at creation.
    > This usually makes layouting easier. The size of each job entry dialog
    > can now be configured in ".spoonrc" as well and accessed via
    > Props.setDialogSize(shell, dialogName)


    I would keep them at least resizable, I already had it a few times I
    had to resize a dialog. And I guess not everyone uses the same
    resolution.

    Regards,
    Sven (the other one ;-) )


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  3. #3
    Matt Casters Guest

    Default RE: Internationalization of Job entries / Layout configuration of dialogs

    On the resize: it will almost certainly not work nicely on other platforms.
    Even on WinXP you can't stick with a fixed size dialog.
    The problem is that you can set any font size on a dialog resulting in
    missing information on large dialogs and empty space with very small fonts.
    You might be able to stick everything on a ScrolledComposite, but the
    scrollbars would make it look even worse.

    Have fun with it, but don't expect too much ;-)

    Cheers,
    Matt

    -----Original Message-----
    From: kettle-developers (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com
    [mailto:kettle-developers (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com] On Behalf Of Sven Boden
    Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 1:29 PM
    To: kettle-developers
    Subject: Re: Internationalization of Job entries / Layout configuration of
    dialogs




    On Jan 30, 4:14 pm, "sven.thiergen" <s.thier... (AT) itcampus (DOT) de> wrote:
    > All job entries were made ready for internationalization (property
    > files of German and English exist right now). Some of the files that
    > needed quite a lot modifications have a changed code layout, so
    > comparing on checkout is a bit troublesome. Sorry about that ...


    The code layout change is pretty annoying yes ;-)


    > There is a new method "getJobsDialogStyle()" which reads the (new)
    > ".spoonrc" entry "JobsDialogStyle" and sets the style for all Job
    > dialogs accordingly. It simply expects strings that match the SWT
    > constants
    >
    > SWT.APPLICATION_MODAL
    > SWT.RESIZE
    > SWT.MAX
    > SWT.MIN
    >
    > (prefix "SWT." is not necessary). So it is possible to specify
    > JobsDialogStyle=RESIZE,MAX,MIN
    >
    > - or any other combination and the style will be build accordingly.
    > E.g. I would like the dialogs to be opened modally -> the user shall
    > finish the dialog before opening any other. Others may think
    > differently and may set the style as they wish. Any thoughts on this?


    Maybe there's a good reason code wise to make a dialog modal and if you
    change it it will break something?

    >
    > Second, I thought it to be a good thing to prevent the dialogs from
    > being resizable and instead setting a well-fitting size at creation.
    > This usually makes layouting easier. The size of each job entry dialog
    > can now be configured in ".spoonrc" as well and accessed via
    > Props.setDialogSize(shell, dialogName)


    I would keep them at least resizable, I already had it a few times I had to
    resize a dialog. And I guess not everyone uses the same resolution.

    Regards,
    Sven (the other one ;-) )





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  4. #4
    Sven Boden Guest

    Default Re: Internationalization of Job entries / Layout configuration of dialogs

    So maybe keep the I18N and remove the dialog modal/sizing?

    Regards,
    Sven


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  5. #5
    Sven Boden Guest

    Default Re: Internationalization of Job entries / Layout configuration of dialogs

    The I18N is good, although some minor things I don't like as the "+"
    instead of the "New" and the "..." instead of "Browse..." ... but
    that's just me bit-f*cking ;-)

    Jens, what I actually mean is that I would leave the forms at least
    resizable. On some platforms any default is going to make the dialog
    ugly or even make it unusable... X11 with some fancy fonts e.g.

    For the non-modal forms, they're good but just changing the modal
    option of a dialog from modal to non-modal is not going be helpful.
    Most of the times it will screw up the logic behind the dialog e.g.
    with regards to database transactions. So more changes are required
    than just making the modalness switchable.

    Regards,
    Sven

    On Feb 1, 6:45 pm, "Jens Bleuel" <jble... (AT) proratio (DOT) de> wrote:
    > Yes - not be modal has so much good things, e.g.:
    > Me and a lot of people mentioned at the "proof of concepts" they like it to
    > copy and/or compare of connections / steps ... and also the sizing is
    > needed.
    >
    > Good work of the I18N!
    >
    > Cheers,
    > Jens
    >



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  6. #6
    Bernardo Arlandis Ma Guest

    Default Re: Internationalization of Job entries / Layout configuration of dialogs

    There are already some problems related to windows in Linux, so I would ask not
    to worsen the situation. SWT is ugly for multi-platform programming, so impact
    on all platforms should be considered when making changes.

    Regards,
    Bernardo

    Sven Boden escribi

  7. #7
    Matt Casters Guest

    Default RE: Internationalization of Job entries / Layout configuration of dialogs

    I of-course reserve the right to disagree here. Spoon looks wonderful on both OSX and Linux.
    And in any case it's a big step up from the gray rectangle abomination called "Swing".

    Bernardo, do yourself a favor and install a real operating system. Debian is notorious for being years behind on the latest development.
    The stability goal of Debian is IMHO a very good choice as a server platform.. However, if you are looking for a Linux workstation with a GUI I would recommend you go with SuSE, Fedora Core, (K)Ubuntu & others. (just about anything besides Debian will do)

    It's also a given that evolution in X11 and the libraries on top of that are evolving at such an incredible pace right now, that a few years is an eternity. AIGLX, GLX, Compiz and Beryl are mostly responsible for this. There is something about having your windows drawn on a glass cube that draws a crowd and this is driving a new generation of software developers to the Linux platform.

    Just my �.02, take care,

    Matt

    -----Original Message-----
    From: kettle-developers (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com [mailto:kettle-developers (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com] On Behalf Of Bernardo Arlandis Ma��
    Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 10:31 AM
    To: kettle-developers (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com
    Subject: Re: Internationalization of Job entries / Layout configuration of dialogs


    There are already some problems related to windows in Linux, so I would ask not to worsen the situation. SWT is ugly for multi-platform programming, so impact on all platforms should be considered when making changes.

    Regards,
    Bernardo

    Sven Boden escribi�:
    >
    > The I18N is good, although some minor things I don't like as the "+"
    > instead of the "New" and the "..." instead of "Browse..." ... but
    > that's just me bit-f*cking ;-)
    >
    > Jens, what I actually mean is that I would leave the forms at least
    > resizable. On some platforms any default is going to make the dialog
    > ugly or even make it unusable... X11 with some fancy fonts e.g.
    >
    > For the non-modal forms, they're good but just changing the modal
    > option of a dialog from modal to non-modal is not going be helpful.
    > Most of the times it will screw up the logic behind the dialog e.g.
    > with regards to database transactions. So more changes are required
    > than just making the modalness switchable.
    >
    > Regards,
    > Sven
    >
    > On Feb 1, 6:45 pm, "Jens Bleuel" <jble... (AT) proratio (DOT) de> wrote:
    >> Yes - not be modal has so much good things, e.g.:
    >> Me and a lot of people mentioned at the "proof of concepts" they like
    >> it to copy and/or compare of connections / steps ... and also the
    >> sizing is needed.
    >>
    >> Good work of the I18N!
    >>
    >> Cheers,
    >> Jens
    >>

    >
    >
    > >






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  8. #8
    sven.thiergen Guest

    Default Re: Internationalization of Job entries / Layout configuration of dialogs

    Just for my defence and make things clear: Everything (modal <-> not
    modal, resizable <-> hard-wired size etc.) is completely configurable
    and in fact the default behaviour right now is as it has been for
    weeks and months. Changes are only visible if you explicitly use the
    new options in ".spoonrc". It was a suggestion because people may e.g.
    find that they use Kettle exclusively on platforms where a hard-wired
    size is acceptable.

    It's true that the user can always break it by using fonts of larger
    size (you may alter them in Kettle itself, obviously). The main reason
    why I came with this idea is that often enough a dialog opened too
    small which looks ugly (but at least gets noticed). Even worse are the
    cases when a dialog is opened too small and label text's do not get
    shown completely. The user doesn't notice that anything is missing and
    wonders what the half-finished labels mean.

    The modal / not modal has some good argument pro and against as well.
    For the developer it may be advantageous to have multiple small
    dialogs opened at the same time. For users it may be better to keep
    things clear and have everything modal. We should consider the cases
    where we as developers act as consultants and have Kettle installed
    for users of non-technical background.

    The argument that dialogs in some cases must not be modal because
    you'll have to edit others at the same time: Do we have examples of
    that in Kettle? I felt that one could always safely edit one dialog,
    close it and open up the next one without having to switch between the
    two. Programmatically it's still possible to opened up new dialogs
    even if the current one is modal, you'll get a chain of modal dialogs
    then.

    So I am going the new options, if still wished (no one really seems to
    like it) - although I would ask you to think about it again after
    reading this.


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  9. #9
    Matt Casters Guest

    Default RE: Internationalization of Job entries / Layout configuration of dialogs

    Hi Sven T,

    You raise valid points here. When a dialog opens too small it can be
    tricky.
    However, the solution for that is IMHO to add more ScrolledComposites like
    we did in the TextFileInput dialog.
    Notice how for example in the very crowded "File" or "Content" tabs it is
    impossible to make the labels loose text.

    The solution seems clear to me, what is not clear where I would find the
    time to patch 'm all.
    Maybe we could make a list of dialogs that are in most urgent need of this
    threatment & go from there.

    Modal dialogs: I still don't like 'm and they seriously p*ss me off in other
    applications.
    However, again that doesn't mean that your points are invalid.
    I think there are alternatives we can conjure up. Thinking outside the
    lines for a minute, it's possible to imagine that you do a bit of window
    management.
    If you keep track of the open windows/dialogs you might (optionally) prevent
    the same window from opening twice, show a list of open windows somewhere,
    etc.
    Again, I would go for a solution that offers our users MORE options, not
    less.

    Let's please also remember that our typical user is not a "Noob" at all but
    rather an experienced computer savy person.

    Take care,

    Matt

    -----Original Message-----
    From: kettle-developers (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com
    [mailto:kettle-developers (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com] On Behalf Of sven.thiergen
    Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 3:28 PM
    To: kettle-developers
    Subject: Re: Internationalization of Job entries / Layout configuration of
    dialogs


    Just for my defence and make things clear: Everything (modal <-> not modal,
    resizable <-> hard-wired size etc.) is completely configurable and in fact
    the default behaviour right now is as it has been for weeks and months.
    Changes are only visible if you explicitly use the new options in
    ".spoonrc". It was a suggestion because people may e.g.
    find that they use Kettle exclusively on platforms where a hard-wired size
    is acceptable.

    It's true that the user can always break it by using fonts of larger size
    (you may alter them in Kettle itself, obviously). The main reason why I came
    with this idea is that often enough a dialog opened too small which looks
    ugly (but at least gets noticed). Even worse are the cases when a dialog is
    opened too small and label text's do not get shown completely. The user
    doesn't notice that anything is missing and wonders what the half-finished
    labels mean.

    The modal / not modal has some good argument pro and against as well.
    For the developer it may be advantageous to have multiple small dialogs
    opened at the same time. For users it may be better to keep things clear and
    have everything modal. We should consider the cases where we as developers
    act as consultants and have Kettle installed for users of non-technical
    background.

    The argument that dialogs in some cases must not be modal because you'll
    have to edit others at the same time: Do we have examples of that in Kettle?
    I felt that one could always safely edit one dialog, close it and open up
    the next one without having to switch between the two. Programmatically it's
    still possible to opened up new dialogs even if the current one is modal,
    you'll get a chain of modal dialogs then.

    So I am going the new options, if still wished (no one really seems to like
    it) - although I would ask you to think about it again after reading this.





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  10. #10
    Tim Pigden Guest

    Default RE: Internationalization of Job entries / Layout configuration of dialogs

    Sorry, Sven I haven't been following this closely so may be barking up
    the wrong tree. But I quite often look at input / output fields while
    editing transformation dialogs.

    Tim Pigden
    -----Original Message-----
    From: kettle-developers (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com
    [mailto:kettle-developers (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com] On Behalf Of sven.thiergen
    Sent: 06 February 2007 14:28
    To: kettle-developers
    Subject: Re: Internationalization of Job entries / Layout configuration
    of dialogs


    Just for my defence and make things clear: Everything (modal <-> not
    modal, resizable <-> hard-wired size etc.) is completely configurable
    and in fact the default behaviour right now is as it has been for
    weeks and months. Changes are only visible if you explicitly use the
    new options in ".spoonrc". It was a suggestion because people may e.g.
    find that they use Kettle exclusively on platforms where a hard-wired
    size is acceptable.

    It's true that the user can always break it by using fonts of larger
    size (you may alter them in Kettle itself, obviously). The main reason
    why I came with this idea is that often enough a dialog opened too
    small which looks ugly (but at least gets noticed). Even worse are the
    cases when a dialog is opened too small and label text's do not get
    shown completely. The user doesn't notice that anything is missing and
    wonders what the half-finished labels mean.

    The modal / not modal has some good argument pro and against as well.
    For the developer it may be advantageous to have multiple small
    dialogs opened at the same time. For users it may be better to keep
    things clear and have everything modal. We should consider the cases
    where we as developers act as consultants and have Kettle installed
    for users of non-technical background.

    The argument that dialogs in some cases must not be modal because
    you'll have to edit others at the same time: Do we have examples of
    that in Kettle? I felt that one could always safely edit one dialog,
    close it and open up the next one without having to switch between the
    two. Programmatically it's still possible to opened up new dialogs
    even if the current one is modal, you'll get a chain of modal dialogs
    then.

    So I am going the new options, if still wished (no one really seems to
    like it) - although I would ask you to think about it again after
    reading this.




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